DID ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY PLAY SHADOW OF THE COLUSSUS?
THE DUDE RUNS LIKE A CHICK ANYWAY!
(and he throws like a girl!)
THE DUDE RUNS LIKE A CHICK ANYWAY!
(and he throws like a girl!)
Editorial: Last Guardian's Girl Trouble
- Thread starter Bot-IGN
- Start date
Paul-360 YOU"RE MISSING THE POINT! YOU ARE!
Has it ever occured to your brain, that Ueda was just trying to be POLITE,
that in JAPAN it would have been way more insulting to just say
"BECAUSE I WANTED A BOY" Has it ever OCCURED to you INSENSITIVE IDIOTS,
that thats probably a culturally touchy subject in Japan. SO MAYBE HE DID GIVE THE RIGHT ANSWER! THIS WHOLE IS IS A FUCKING RETARDED TRAVESTY!
ITS A FIGHT OVER SEMANTICS AND RYAN IS TRYING TO BE SOME FUCKING HERO.
OH RYAN YOU REALLY SAVED THE PRINCESS THIS TIME! YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU"RE TAKING A POLITE GUY, AND FUCKING HIM OVER. PLEASE GIVE UEDA THE FUCKING RESPECT HE DESERVES.
Has it ever occured to your brain, that Ueda was just trying to be POLITE,
that in JAPAN it would have been way more insulting to just say
"BECAUSE I WANTED A BOY" Has it ever OCCURED to you INSENSITIVE IDIOTS,
that thats probably a culturally touchy subject in Japan. SO MAYBE HE DID GIVE THE RIGHT ANSWER! THIS WHOLE IS IS A FUCKING RETARDED TRAVESTY!
ITS A FIGHT OVER SEMANTICS AND RYAN IS TRYING TO BE SOME FUCKING HERO.
OH RYAN YOU REALLY SAVED THE PRINCESS THIS TIME! YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU"RE TAKING A POLITE GUY, AND FUCKING HIM OVER. PLEASE GIVE UEDA THE FUCKING RESPECT HE DESERVES.
Let me put it THIS WAY, in JAPAN, its POLITICALLY INCORRECT to say...
"JUST BECAUSE I WANTED A BOY" because of their HISTORY, THAT is the MOST INSENSITVE THING YOU CAN SAY! HOW CAN YOU GUYS NOT SEE THAT?
HE'S BEATHING AROUND THE BUSH PRECISELY BECAUSE HE IS A NICE GUY.
AND RYAN and OTHERS WERE SO BLINDED BY THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE,
IT FLEW OVER THEIR HEADS COMPLETELY. ITS A FUCKING TRAVESTY.
THIS PASSES FOR JOURNALISM THESE DAYS? A COMPLETE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION YOU"RE "REPORTING" ON!?
KILL ME NOW.
"JUST BECAUSE I WANTED A BOY" because of their HISTORY, THAT is the MOST INSENSITVE THING YOU CAN SAY! HOW CAN YOU GUYS NOT SEE THAT?
HE'S BEATHING AROUND THE BUSH PRECISELY BECAUSE HE IS A NICE GUY.
AND RYAN and OTHERS WERE SO BLINDED BY THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE,
IT FLEW OVER THEIR HEADS COMPLETELY. ITS A FUCKING TRAVESTY.
THIS PASSES FOR JOURNALISM THESE DAYS? A COMPLETE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION YOU"RE "REPORTING" ON!?
KILL ME NOW.
... we can't be pushing our own culture to another diluting everybody to be like us... it's like being a sculpter... some likes to sculpt man, some women, some weird looking things... stop pushing one's own opinion to another... if we're all the same view then might as well be like cows...
@meekoveepo
has it ever OCCURRED to YOUR LEFT PINKY that you could TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK!!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wait, seriously: what part of their history specifically makes it politically incorrect for them to say "just because i wanted a boy"? enlighten us.
has it ever OCCURRED to YOUR LEFT PINKY that you could TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK!!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wait, seriously: what part of their history specifically makes it politically incorrect for them to say "just because i wanted a boy"? enlighten us.
Writing in capital letters makes you look rather dumb, pal. And describing other people as insensitive while using capital letters all the more.
And it most definitively doesn't help to convey your opinion of the untouchable and unerring Ueda.
If Ueda just was polite and didn't want to adress the subject directly he probably wouldn't had confirmed his earlier subterfuges nor would he actually elaborated them to a point where one furthermore can shut out the possibility of an simple cultural misunderstanding.
And it most definitively doesn't help to convey your opinion of the untouchable and unerring Ueda.
If Ueda just was polite and didn't want to adress the subject directly he probably wouldn't had confirmed his earlier subterfuges nor would he actually elaborated them to a point where one furthermore can shut out the possibility of an simple cultural misunderstanding.
Reading Ryan Clements' article, the only real conclusion I can come up with is: This guy is gay. I'm not trying to be funny. But, it is funny (pardon the pun) this guy was so obsessed with trying to corner this guy because he didn't want to put a girl protagonist in his game. Also, I've read some of the post of the readers as well. I have to conclude, once again, you guys are gay.
You tell me, does it really matter if he doesn't want girl protag(s) to be in his games. News flash, I don't like playing girl protags in games that I buy. That doesn't mean that my culture is set back or nothing like that. If anything, Ryan is being bias against this guys culture. You have to be careful for assuming that everyone is a certain way, if someone has an opinion or take. That called stereotyping.
For example, reading this article, I think Ryan's gay. My opinion. However, my whole race isn't set back because I think Ryan's gay. And make no mistake, this guy's article is very sensitive and feminine. Listen, how about this: I relate to male characters better than I do female, man or boy. He probably thought this of most gamers.
Bad take Ryan, bad take.
You tell me, does it really matter if he doesn't want girl protag(s) to be in his games. News flash, I don't like playing girl protags in games that I buy. That doesn't mean that my culture is set back or nothing like that. If anything, Ryan is being bias against this guys culture. You have to be careful for assuming that everyone is a certain way, if someone has an opinion or take. That called stereotyping.
For example, reading this article, I think Ryan's gay. My opinion. However, my whole race isn't set back because I think Ryan's gay. And make no mistake, this guy's article is very sensitive and feminine. Listen, how about this: I relate to male characters better than I do female, man or boy. He probably thought this of most gamers.
Bad take Ryan, bad take.
There are differences between boys and girls –how they dress, there physical abilities. Distinguishing these differences is not a form of bigotry.
But that is beside the point. This story is essentially branding Ueda along with the rest of the Japanese as sexist. For what? Saying a girl looks “girly”? That’s not sexist. Saying girls are less acrobatic? That’s not sexist. It is true in most cases. Saying girls wear skirts? A lot of girls do wear skirts.
The reason Ueda was surprised that Ryan was focusing on these points is because Ryan’s concerns convey unwarranted accusations which are far more damaging than calling a girl a girl.
But that is beside the point. This story is essentially branding Ueda along with the rest of the Japanese as sexist. For what? Saying a girl looks “girly”? That’s not sexist. Saying girls are less acrobatic? That’s not sexist. It is true in most cases. Saying girls wear skirts? A lot of girls do wear skirts.
The reason Ueda was surprised that Ryan was focusing on these points is because Ryan’s concerns convey unwarranted accusations which are far more damaging than calling a girl a girl.
The more I read this story, the more I understand why the rest of the world hates the US.
It is this type of pompous sense or cultural superiority that sours our relationships.
You see, gender differences are real. In the US we condemn others for even mentioning peoples’ differences while instead we should be celebrating differences.
What is the goal? That everyone become the same? I’ve heard of that before.
It is this type of pompous sense or cultural superiority that sours our relationships.
You see, gender differences are real. In the US we condemn others for even mentioning peoples’ differences while instead we should be celebrating differences.
What is the goal? That everyone become the same? I’ve heard of that before.
Ueda is a great artist--'nuff said. I'm really not tracking as to why this became an issue in the first place. I think you were reaching a bit with this one.
the idea idea that girls are less acrobatic is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe some one should tell the girls olympic gymnastics team that so they can stop wasting thier time ![[face_tongue]](/p/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWduYm9hcmRzLmNvbQ/styles/ign/ign/smilies/classic/stickouttongue.gif "Stick Out Tongue [face_tongue]")
so the author's main argument is that our culture in the U.S. is correct and Japan's culture is wrong. hmmm. this entire article is one big joke and the author is very hypocritical. you cant have your cake and eat it too.
The funny thing is that at the the main character's age (obviously not yet or at least not fully in puberty) there's actually not that much of an difference in physical strength, ability of movement etc. between girls and boys. Actually I defy people claiming girls are less acrobatic. The opposite is true. Go take a look which gender turns cartwheels, does a handstand etc. when at this age.
The issue is not that Ueda said that girls wear skirts. It's because his statement implies that it wasn't possible to make the protagonist of the game female since girls HAVE to wear skirts and lack physical strenght. And that appears as either a lame pretence or a dated prejudice.
See, the thing is, even if in reality girls weren't suitable for the part he easily could make it happen for the game. To say he didn't choose a girl because they inherently can't meet the requirements is a cheap excuse. If he wanted he could create a girl capable of these feats. He could provide her with trousers so gamers wouldn't be tempted to peek - he not even had to refrain from dressing her additionally in skirt-like clothes.
Well, why don't just say that he wanted the main character to be a boy because he himself is male and he and most of the customer can better relate to a protagonist of the same sex etc. ergo the game will sell more units, yield more money, finance the next project ...
That at least would have been understandable and actually acceptable.
So, it's really not about sociology and the absurd claim that there aren't differences between the sexes, see? The Problem lies somewhere else.
PS: I'm not going to answer that childish and immature gay-accusation.
The issue is not that Ueda said that girls wear skirts. It's because his statement implies that it wasn't possible to make the protagonist of the game female since girls HAVE to wear skirts and lack physical strenght. And that appears as either a lame pretence or a dated prejudice.
See, the thing is, even if in reality girls weren't suitable for the part he easily could make it happen for the game. To say he didn't choose a girl because they inherently can't meet the requirements is a cheap excuse. If he wanted he could create a girl capable of these feats. He could provide her with trousers so gamers wouldn't be tempted to peek - he not even had to refrain from dressing her additionally in skirt-like clothes.
Well, why don't just say that he wanted the main character to be a boy because he himself is male and he and most of the customer can better relate to a protagonist of the same sex etc. ergo the game will sell more units, yield more money, finance the next project ...
That at least would have been understandable and actually acceptable.
So, it's really not about sociology and the absurd claim that there aren't differences between the sexes, see? The Problem lies somewhere else.
PS: I'm not going to answer that childish and immature gay-accusation.
http://www.ign.com/blogs/funkytable/2011/03/11/editorial-ryan-clements-cultural-understanding-trouble
Editorial: Ryan Clements' Cultural Understanding Trouble
I was infuriated with Mr. Clements' article implying that Last Guardian director Fumito Ueda is bordering on sexism. I am not someone who is easily outraged by video game news, but this article had very little to do with video games and everything to do with projecting American ideals and morals onto another culture and judging accordingly.
Mr. Ryan Clements decided that he was so troubled by Ueda's comments at TGS, that he would go one step further and clarify the comments in an interview. Then he went one step further and posted his criticism in an article on the front page of the internet's most popular game news website. With that article, it is likely that Ueda will always be viewed as a misogynist in many fan's minds, all because he answered a question haphazardly in front of the American press.
Put yourself in Ueda's shoes for just a second. You are raised in a collectivist culture, where one of your proverbs is "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down". Your thinking is directly opposite of American individualism, and great efforts are taken to appear "normal". The way you dress, the products you buy, the trends that you follow, all fall within the context of collectivism. This is, of course, not followed all the time, but is certainly ingrained in the culture Ueda grew up in.
In such a culture, certain assumptions regarding a subgroup of the culture, in this case young Japanese girls, is not considered offensive. It is not considered offensive to say "girls wear skirts" when girls wear skirts as part of their school uniform across the country. But of course, such a blanket statement is offensive to anyone in an individualistic culture who believe that all individuals are unique and nothing can be assumed about anyone. Individualistic cultures believe predispositions or assumptions blanketing a subgroup are dangerous, counter productive, and offensive.
Collectivism and individualism clashed in Ryan Clements' mind when he thought about Ueda's comments, and unfortunately he decided to judge Ueda based on his own cultural background rather than identifying cultural differences and moving on.
Continued here on my Blog:
http://www.ign.com/blogs/funkytable/2011/03/11/editorial-ryan-clements-cultural-understanding-trouble
Editorial: Ryan Clements' Cultural Understanding Trouble
I was infuriated with Mr. Clements' article implying that Last Guardian director Fumito Ueda is bordering on sexism. I am not someone who is easily outraged by video game news, but this article had very little to do with video games and everything to do with projecting American ideals and morals onto another culture and judging accordingly.
Mr. Ryan Clements decided that he was so troubled by Ueda's comments at TGS, that he would go one step further and clarify the comments in an interview. Then he went one step further and posted his criticism in an article on the front page of the internet's most popular game news website. With that article, it is likely that Ueda will always be viewed as a misogynist in many fan's minds, all because he answered a question haphazardly in front of the American press.
Put yourself in Ueda's shoes for just a second. You are raised in a collectivist culture, where one of your proverbs is "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down". Your thinking is directly opposite of American individualism, and great efforts are taken to appear "normal". The way you dress, the products you buy, the trends that you follow, all fall within the context of collectivism. This is, of course, not followed all the time, but is certainly ingrained in the culture Ueda grew up in.
In such a culture, certain assumptions regarding a subgroup of the culture, in this case young Japanese girls, is not considered offensive. It is not considered offensive to say "girls wear skirts" when girls wear skirts as part of their school uniform across the country. But of course, such a blanket statement is offensive to anyone in an individualistic culture who believe that all individuals are unique and nothing can be assumed about anyone. Individualistic cultures believe predispositions or assumptions blanketing a subgroup are dangerous, counter productive, and offensive.
Collectivism and individualism clashed in Ryan Clements' mind when he thought about Ueda's comments, and unfortunately he decided to judge Ueda based on his own cultural background rather than identifying cultural differences and moving on.
Continued here on my Blog:
http://www.ign.com/blogs/funkytable/2011/03/11/editorial-ryan-clements-cultural-understanding-trouble
I CAN'T BELIEVE HE DID'NT EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS UEDA BEING SENSITIVE.
ITS RYAN WHO DOESN'T GET IT. HE GOT IT BACKWARDS!
ITS RYAN WHO DOESN'T GET IT. HE GOT IT BACKWARDS!
He COULD"NT say that. BECAUSE in Japan HE IS BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT.
ITS THE OLD WORLD POLITICALLY IN-CORRECT JAPAN that would always SAY
"BECAUSE I JUST WANT A BOY" HE WAS JUST TRYING TO AVOID SAYING SOMETHING HORRIBLE.
RYAN GOT IT BACKWARDS, MAKING AMERICANS LOOK LIKE ASSES!
ITS THE OLD WORLD POLITICALLY IN-CORRECT JAPAN that would always SAY
"BECAUSE I JUST WANT A BOY" HE WAS JUST TRYING TO AVOID SAYING SOMETHING HORRIBLE.
RYAN GOT IT BACKWARDS, MAKING AMERICANS LOOK LIKE ASSES!
Yeah, it's the same thing as before. Cultural identity and tolerance towards differing social characteristics is one thing, but legitimazing institutional sexism shouldn't be approved under any cirsumstances. That's just stupid and, yes, bigot.
BTW: Saying that " Japanese girls wear skirts", "people in Japan adhere to collectivism" etc. is 1) not true 2) an arrogant generalisation and determination 3) based on the assumption that culture is a stable and fixed instead of an homogeneous, complex entity that constantly changes and develops. Especially the Japanese society is full of contrasts and contradictions and not so easily definable.
BTW: Saying that " Japanese girls wear skirts", "people in Japan adhere to collectivism" etc. is 1) not true 2) an arrogant generalisation and determination 3) based on the assumption that culture is a stable and fixed instead of an homogeneous, complex entity that constantly changes and develops. Especially the Japanese society is full of contrasts and contradictions and not so easily definable.
"Why are all of your characters japanese?"
- "Well if they were american they would have to be fat and wouldn't be capable of performing acrobatic moves."
- "Well if they were american they would have to be fat and wouldn't be capable of performing acrobatic moves."
@Samurai-Zoso
I’ll be as clear as possible for you.
My daughter, about the age of the character, took the presidential tests. Her score was best in the class for girls. Her score was worse than the worst boy who, according to her, was fat. This isn’t rocket science.
This is a clear case of presenting someone with an unexpected question. His concerns were legitimate but misconstrued –the difficulty making a character look girly when zoomed out, the believability of the characters abilities, and the fact that most guys like playing as guys.
Calling a girl a girl shouldn’t be insulting. But calling a man a bigot is.
Saying girls wear skirts is like saying girls wear pants. It’s true.
I’ll be as clear as possible for you.
My daughter, about the age of the character, took the presidential tests. Her score was best in the class for girls. Her score was worse than the worst boy who, according to her, was fat. This isn’t rocket science.
This is a clear case of presenting someone with an unexpected question. His concerns were legitimate but misconstrued –the difficulty making a character look girly when zoomed out, the believability of the characters abilities, and the fact that most guys like playing as guys.
Calling a girl a girl shouldn’t be insulting. But calling a man a bigot is.
Saying girls wear skirts is like saying girls wear pants. It’s true.
Listening to the Podcast where you brought this up, and I just wanted to say one thing. Statistically, women have two things that they are physically better at than men (generally). One: Flexibility. Women have more lean muscle as compared to men's usual bulky muscle. When trying to bend your body into any position, you are limited by how far your muscles can move. Ever seen a body builder try to scratch his own back? Can't do it. Too much muscle. Women are also better with their hands. They are more dextrous and generally their hand-eye coordination is better. Fun fact, women are actually statistically better shooters than men.
Also: Women in most cases have a lower center of gravity (men have most of their weight in their chest and arms, women in their hips and legs). Guess what this means? Better balance, therefore, likely to be better at acrobatics.
Also: Women in most cases have a lower center of gravity (men have most of their weight in their chest and arms, women in their hips and legs). Guess what this means? Better balance, therefore, likely to be better at acrobatics.
ive never said anything too bad about the articles here on ign but, and i dont want to come off as a troll, but i think this article was a waste of space and was only done to be controversial, why is is lightening a girl and not a boy? why is donkey kong a gorrila and not a monkey? why does alot of japan's culture have different ideals than your's?
Humperpump said:the idea idea that girls are less acrobatic is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe some one should tell the girls olympic gymnastics team that so they can stop wasting thier time
No they'd only be wasting their time if they were forced to compete against the male olympic gymnasts because they'd get destroyed. Think. That's why we have seperate events.
@NinjaShteve
Women being better at shooting than men is a myth. A vast majority of the best shooters in the world have been men, and there are no studies to prove gender plays a role either way.
Also, Ueda was specifically talking about climbing which requires more upper body strength.
Women being better at shooting than men is a myth. A vast majority of the best shooters in the world have been men, and there are no studies to prove gender plays a role either way.
Also, Ueda was specifically talking about climbing which requires more upper body strength.
I wonder if we’d be having this same conversation if a developer decided to use a girl as the main character because a boy was too much like a boy. Why not ask Ueda why the character is white next.
What is wrong with girls wearing skirts again?
This is such an overreaction it is amazing. How ridiculous.
What is wrong with girls wearing skirts again?
This is such an overreaction it is amazing. How ridiculous.
Thanks for the great editorial, Ryan! When I heard you talk about this on Podcast Beyond (BEEEEYOND!!!!), I heard and shared in your concern. You're absolutely right that this his responses are indicative of sexism and this myopic view is, in turn, a significant contributing factor to the diminishing relevance of the Japanese culture in terms of games development.
@LuccaMarle: Well ..
1) Take a look at the comment above yours for point one. Besides in the preview videos of the game I haven't seen the boy perform any movements a girl at that age couldn't do as well.
2) You're constructing evidence. "The difficulty making a character look girly when zoomed out"?!
Excuse me. Are we talking about the same developer who provides his cat-/dog-/lion-like creation with astounding realistic and lifelike animation and expressions not to speak of the fantastic design of the animal's fur respectively plumage?
"The believability of the characters abilities"?
So you're implying it's overly difficult or even impossible to render the actions of the game's character realistic if it were a girl? A girl (Tomboy characteristics, anyone?!) at that, not a woman with, let's say, distinctive female attributes that "could" be hindering while performing certain activities. Sorry, but in the year 2011 that is not a valid argument.
"The fact that most guys like playing as guys"
Well, if you scroll down, I've already said (and even elaborated on it) that I actually share this reasoning and can comprehend the viewpoint. From a financial standpont it indeed makes sense.
3)"This is a clear case of presenting someone with an unexpected question."
Well, perhaps. But then this issue was at least addressed twice. Furthermore in an official, planned and scheduled demonstration where the (international) jorunalists were encouraged to ask questions about the project. It's not as if these questions were put before an unprepared Ueda all of a sudden. If Ueda - whose artistic vision I actually admire - needed an excuse to present because he didn't wanted to share his real reasons he had more than enough time at his disposal to come up with at least one. There's probably even a public relation department for such matters.
1) Take a look at the comment above yours for point one. Besides in the preview videos of the game I haven't seen the boy perform any movements a girl at that age couldn't do as well.
2) You're constructing evidence. "The difficulty making a character look girly when zoomed out"?!
Excuse me. Are we talking about the same developer who provides his cat-/dog-/lion-like creation with astounding realistic and lifelike animation and expressions not to speak of the fantastic design of the animal's fur respectively plumage?
"The believability of the characters abilities"?
So you're implying it's overly difficult or even impossible to render the actions of the game's character realistic if it were a girl? A girl (Tomboy characteristics, anyone?!) at that, not a woman with, let's say, distinctive female attributes that "could" be hindering while performing certain activities. Sorry, but in the year 2011 that is not a valid argument.
"The fact that most guys like playing as guys"
Well, if you scroll down, I've already said (and even elaborated on it) that I actually share this reasoning and can comprehend the viewpoint. From a financial standpont it indeed makes sense.
3)"This is a clear case of presenting someone with an unexpected question."
Well, perhaps. But then this issue was at least addressed twice. Furthermore in an official, planned and scheduled demonstration where the (international) jorunalists were encouraged to ask questions about the project. It's not as if these questions were put before an unprepared Ueda all of a sudden. If Ueda - whose artistic vision I actually admire - needed an excuse to present because he didn't wanted to share his real reasons he had more than enough time at his disposal to come up with at least one. There's probably even a public relation department for such matters.
THEY ARE THE OPPOSITE OF SEXISM, HE IS TRYING TO AVOID COMING OUT SAYING "JUST BECAUSE I WANTED A BOY" BECAUSE OF THE HISTORY WITH THEIR CULTURE...TO COME OUT AND SAY THAT WOULD BE HORRIBLE. RYAN GOT IT BACKWARDS. HIS NON-UNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION IS MAKING HIM LOOK LIKE AN ASS. HE OWES THE MAN AN APOLOGY FOR POSTING THAT ARTICLE
IN THE FIRST PLACE. THIS IS RYANS MISUNDERSTANDING.
IN THE FIRST PLACE. THIS IS RYANS MISUNDERSTANDING.
@Samurai-Zoso
No. You are incorrectly deconstructing my comments and misinterpreting them, much like the author of this story did.
Ueda’s arguments are valid whether you agree or not. They are the basis for his creation and nothing more. You can question them all you want, but there is no warrant for the label of bigotry.
Girls are girls. It is as simple as that. If for some reason you believe that if girls are not as physically inclined as boys that would automatically make them inferior to boys then it is you that needs to take a look in the mirror.
No. You are incorrectly deconstructing my comments and misinterpreting them, much like the author of this story did.
Ueda’s arguments are valid whether you agree or not. They are the basis for his creation and nothing more. You can question them all you want, but there is no warrant for the label of bigotry.
Girls are girls. It is as simple as that. If for some reason you believe that if girls are not as physically inclined as boys that would automatically make them inferior to boys then it is you that needs to take a look in the mirror.
I guess what I’m really trying to say is that girls are not inferior because they wear skirts or are weaker (in some respects) than boys. And if Ueda isn’t calling girls inferior then what’s the problem?
Considering the timeline and setting of the game, it would have been unusual for a girl to be wearing pants.
Either way, I think the OP is kind of a D for harassing one of the greatest game creators of our time.
Either way, I think the OP is kind of a D for harassing one of the greatest game creators of our time.
@LuccaMarle: Hm, interesting. Now you're interpreting my post in a way that I'm someone who thinks women/girls are inferior. Wow.
We were arguing initially about the fact that girls at that age are capable of the same physical artistics as boys - or precisly not. That was one of the main points of difference.
What does this has to do with one sex being overall superior to the other? I certainly never said that. I was purely discussing the issue of physical strength and athletics. I was arguing that Ueda with his comments was reinforcing an old stereotypical prejudice and therefore pigeonholing the role of women/girls. I at least see no direct linkage between the ability to perform physical actions and the evaluation of a person.
So, did I "incorrectly misinterpret your comments".
So-so. Why don't you answer my examination of your statements then?
Ueda arguments are as valid as everybody else's - including the author's one of this article. -)
We were arguing initially about the fact that girls at that age are capable of the same physical artistics as boys - or precisly not. That was one of the main points of difference.
What does this has to do with one sex being overall superior to the other? I certainly never said that. I was purely discussing the issue of physical strength and athletics. I was arguing that Ueda with his comments was reinforcing an old stereotypical prejudice and therefore pigeonholing the role of women/girls. I at least see no direct linkage between the ability to perform physical actions and the evaluation of a person.
So, did I "incorrectly misinterpret your comments".
So-so. Why don't you answer my examination of your statements then?
Ueda arguments are as valid as everybody else's - including the author's one of this article. -)
@Samurai-Zoso
Exactly! What does physical strength have to do with someone being inferior or superior? So if that's the case then what did Ueda do wrong exactly?
About your other points. I appreciate them, but there are many times many studies which prove athletic ability is much more prominent in boys than girls.
I do appreciate the conversation.
Exactly! What does physical strength have to do with someone being inferior or superior? So if that's the case then what did Ueda do wrong exactly?
About your other points. I appreciate them, but there are many times many studies which prove athletic ability is much more prominent in boys than girls.
I do appreciate the conversation.
WinkerWallaby:
No, it would not have been unusual for girls to wear pants - because it is not an accurate depiction of history whatsoever but a fantasy game with a fictional background.
If Ueda (or anyone who makes these kind of games) wanted he could dress his heroine in whatever he thinks appropriate for the conceived culture the character originated from/ what the chosen climate demands.
That's exactly the kind of complacent argumentation people tend to fall in when discussion such matters.
Yay! Fumito Ueda picked a boy for all three of his games, and had trouble explaining why! And then the reader is left to draw his own conclusions!!
The genetic basis of male strength or lack thereof aside, I think this was a misstep on the part of IGN and the author. The way the article reads, it already sounds like there may or may not be actual grounds for making any assumptions about Ueda's view on gender equality, so posting it is just an invitation to spark speculation. The rumor mill churns on the weakest whispers, so if this was intentional I'm not sure I feel the same way about the integrity of IGN as I sued to.
The genetic basis of male strength or lack thereof aside, I think this was a misstep on the part of IGN and the author. The way the article reads, it already sounds like there may or may not be actual grounds for making any assumptions about Ueda's view on gender equality, so posting it is just an invitation to spark speculation. The rumor mill churns on the weakest whispers, so if this was intentional I'm not sure I feel the same way about the integrity of IGN as I sued to.
Its their game, if they dont want to make little girl characters then they dont want to make little girl characters. I imagine some grown men may want to play this game, what grown man wants to play as a damn little girl. Their boy character is perfect for their story.
Consider this: A developer has two choices for a main character –a scientist and a marine.
The gameplay represents intensely physical challenges to the character.
The dev chooses a marine. One reason is that he doesn’t want the character wearing a lab coat. Remember, a lab coat would clearly identify the scientist.
Does this degrade the scientist in any way? No. Is there a possibility that the scientist could be stronger than the marine? Of course there is, but it doesn’t matter.
Should scientists unite and claim bigotry? Hardly.
The gameplay represents intensely physical challenges to the character.
The dev chooses a marine. One reason is that he doesn’t want the character wearing a lab coat. Remember, a lab coat would clearly identify the scientist.
Does this degrade the scientist in any way? No. Is there a possibility that the scientist could be stronger than the marine? Of course there is, but it doesn’t matter.
Should scientists unite and claim bigotry? Hardly.
Why does this matter, again? I just want the game to be released this year.
@LuccaMarle
"Exactly! What does physical strength have to do with someone being inferior or superior? So if that's the case then what did Ueda do wrong exactly"
As I pointed out in my last post:
I was arguing that Ueda with his comments was reinforcing an old stereotypical prejudice and therefore pigeonholing the role of women/girls.
Arguing that girls are inferior just because they - hypothetical speaking, after all we're not discussing high-performance sport but simple acts of climbing, running etc. as depicted in the videos so far released - can't perform specific physical actions is totally beside the point. I think we agree on that. So we can put that at least to rest.
But judging by Ueda's comments - not just a single one which could be easily discounted as mistranslation or misunderstanding - he's not considering a girl for the part of the main protagonist because of an artistic decision, financial causes (male characters appeal more to the majority of gamers) or personal preferences (one could argue that prejudices are ... but for the sake of this argument ...) but because "girls wear skirts" "can't do the physical stuff" required from the character in the game.
And that is just bullshit, excuse me. Girls don't have to wear skirts. It doesn't matter that Japanese schoolgirls are wearing them. This is a video game set in a fictional world. And an imaginative and exceptional, normally with his work out of the box thinking artist like Ueda should be able to create a recognizable female without sticking to cheap sartorial characteristics*.
And again a girl could do "the physical stuff" depicted in the videos. That's nothing overly fancy.(And even if it were who says the girl in the game has to be ordinary and not someone with great climbing skills for instance?)
By denying girls such abilities he's - deliberately or not - reinforcing stereotypes. Yeah, sure, statistically boys may tend more to "romp about" but that doesn't and shouldn't mean girls can't or don't too.
One could argue in the same vein that girls at that age tend more to animals, especially cat-like ones, than boys. Now what would that mean for 'The Last Guardian'. But that would be a horrible cliché, wouldn't it?^^
I do appreciate the conversation too. Though at times it's a bit frustrating (no hard feelings) and it strains my command of the English language.
Cheers.
*PS: Yeah, they help - I see your line of reasoning - but that's not what Ueda said and that's also not the way how he expressed himself.
"Exactly! What does physical strength have to do with someone being inferior or superior? So if that's the case then what did Ueda do wrong exactly"
As I pointed out in my last post:
I was arguing that Ueda with his comments was reinforcing an old stereotypical prejudice and therefore pigeonholing the role of women/girls.
Arguing that girls are inferior just because they - hypothetical speaking, after all we're not discussing high-performance sport but simple acts of climbing, running etc. as depicted in the videos so far released - can't perform specific physical actions is totally beside the point. I think we agree on that. So we can put that at least to rest.
But judging by Ueda's comments - not just a single one which could be easily discounted as mistranslation or misunderstanding - he's not considering a girl for the part of the main protagonist because of an artistic decision, financial causes (male characters appeal more to the majority of gamers) or personal preferences (one could argue that prejudices are ... but for the sake of this argument ...) but because "girls wear skirts" "can't do the physical stuff" required from the character in the game.
And that is just bullshit, excuse me. Girls don't have to wear skirts. It doesn't matter that Japanese schoolgirls are wearing them. This is a video game set in a fictional world. And an imaginative and exceptional, normally with his work out of the box thinking artist like Ueda should be able to create a recognizable female without sticking to cheap sartorial characteristics*.
And again a girl could do "the physical stuff" depicted in the videos. That's nothing overly fancy.(And even if it were who says the girl in the game has to be ordinary and not someone with great climbing skills for instance?)
By denying girls such abilities he's - deliberately or not - reinforcing stereotypes. Yeah, sure, statistically boys may tend more to "romp about" but that doesn't and shouldn't mean girls can't or don't too.
One could argue in the same vein that girls at that age tend more to animals, especially cat-like ones, than boys. Now what would that mean for 'The Last Guardian'. But that would be a horrible cliché, wouldn't it?^^
I do appreciate the conversation too. Though at times it's a bit frustrating (no hard feelings) and it strains my command of the English language.
Cheers.
*PS: Yeah, they help - I see your line of reasoning - but that's not what Ueda said and that's also not the way how he expressed himself.
I dont care about this game or this developer, but as 30yrs old male, this is a NON issue for me.
The only place where its a issue is USA and some parts of Europe, and the reason is simple, Political correctness brainwashing.
The same way you Automatically expect from a coworker to lift heavy chairs for a meeting or install an LCD tv on a wall mount or mount projector and no one sees anything wrong with it, we expect from woman to do tea.
If you want to be PC correct, be 100% PC and let woman do mans job without complaining, but in this current liberally poisoned world, men are expected to be man and do "manly" things but women dont have to do ANYTHING becuase its chauvinist to expect anything from them such as make tea or coffee.
The only place where its a issue is USA and some parts of Europe, and the reason is simple, Political correctness brainwashing.
The same way you Automatically expect from a coworker to lift heavy chairs for a meeting or install an LCD tv on a wall mount or mount projector and no one sees anything wrong with it, we expect from woman to do tea.
If you want to be PC correct, be 100% PC and let woman do mans job without complaining, but in this current liberally poisoned world, men are expected to be man and do "manly" things but women dont have to do ANYTHING becuase its chauvinist to expect anything from them such as make tea or coffee.
@Samurai-Zoso
Ueda’s comments specifically pointed to the technical issues when using a female character. This is the skirt discussion. Incorrect or not, he was stating his views regarding what he believes to be a technical issue not a gender issue. He assumes a girl would wear a skirt because it is an easy way to differentiate gender. Many girls do wear skirts. Why are skirts so demeaning to women?
He also addresses the fact that guys like playing guys saying, “But also, many of the players are male, and it's easy for them to use the boy character.”
At no point does Ueda say girls are inferior, at least in the article anyways. He does say he doesn’t think it would be believable for a young girl to perform those tasks. I think this is your biggest complaint. It is possible, of course, for a girl to be every bit as strong as a boy, but it is an exception and not a rule.
He made simple comments that were blow way out of proportion by this story.
Ueda’s comments specifically pointed to the technical issues when using a female character. This is the skirt discussion. Incorrect or not, he was stating his views regarding what he believes to be a technical issue not a gender issue. He assumes a girl would wear a skirt because it is an easy way to differentiate gender. Many girls do wear skirts. Why are skirts so demeaning to women?
He also addresses the fact that guys like playing guys saying, “But also, many of the players are male, and it's easy for them to use the boy character.”
At no point does Ueda say girls are inferior, at least in the article anyways. He does say he doesn’t think it would be believable for a young girl to perform those tasks. I think this is your biggest complaint. It is possible, of course, for a girl to be every bit as strong as a boy, but it is an exception and not a rule.
He made simple comments that were blow way out of proportion by this story.
It is no insult to call a girl a girl unless you undervalue a girl. I completely disagree with the editorial.
Who gives a fuck if he's being sexist or not? It's just a game. Play it. Enjoy it. End of story. Goodbye.
most fucking stupid article ever PERIOD
great job with the article ryan its nice to see ign tackle some of these issues that plague gaming and its developers. Thanks bud!!
Girls are stoopid.
Article is unabashedly stupid. Complaining about a lack of female protagonists from a developer with three major games to their credit? Complaining about the acknowledgment of technical issues surrounding a female PC? Complaining about how Team Ico decides to write their story just because it's not completely suited for a female protagonist? This is utter idiocy and a pathetic display of self-righteousness.
Is there cooking in this game?
@LuccaMarle
Yeah, alright, he's saying it's a technical issue. And I said before that I don't buy it. Look at 'Trico' (the name of the cat-bird-lion thing) for instance. I've just recently read in a German magazine covering the topic that 'Trico' is not animated per motion capturing but per hand in time-consuming procedure to render the movements of its character and the motions of his plumage realistic and convincing. And the director of a game with such an eye for detail is telling me that they would encounter problems when animating a simple skirt which by the way was successfully done in the past many times.
And I don't have objections to girls or women wearing a skirt per se, don't get me wrong, and though it's one of those objects often associated with the oppression of women it of course doesn't automatically stand for sexism. Many woman rightfully love to wear them - it can be a beautiful piece of clothing - and being quite forward thinking nonetheless.
The issue here is that Ueda implied that a girl in his game HAS to wear one! If not dressed that way the customer would not recognize the protagonist as female and, worse, not accept her? Sorry, that's not convincing. I mean Ueda is creating a pretty unique brand of games, far from the usual conventions of the gaming industry but he has to adhere to archaic gender roles in at least two aspects otherwise the game would be met with disregard? Again, that just sounds like an excuse.
The "guys likes playing guys thing" was addressed before (and in my initial post I actually stated that I prefer it that way too because it simplifies the identification with the character) and though it allows interesting insights in the gamer's psyche (if you will) that's an valid argument.
It's not believable that girls do the physical stuff the game demands from his main protagonist? Again, from what I've seen that statement is rather laughable. It's not Nathan Drake or Kratos we're talking about.
Of course he doesn't actually say girls are inferior. Ha ha ... we wouldn't be discussing at all but condeming him in unison if that were the case.
I agree that the whole discussion has been blown out of proportion but then many things only come out into the open when you do some digging. ;-)
I don't want to judge Ueda, as I said I love his games so far - but that doesn't mean he can't be critized at all or that some of his questionable comments aren't open to closer scrutinising.
And actually I only felt compelled to write down my opinion 'cause some rather stupid members of IGN are totally missing the point (you know, those yelling "RYAN YOU F***! THIS IS TOTAL BULLSHIT. HOW DARE YOU! etc.pp.)
I think we've reached a point where we go round in circles.
Yeah, alright, he's saying it's a technical issue. And I said before that I don't buy it. Look at 'Trico' (the name of the cat-bird-lion thing) for instance. I've just recently read in a German magazine covering the topic that 'Trico' is not animated per motion capturing but per hand in time-consuming procedure to render the movements of its character and the motions of his plumage realistic and convincing. And the director of a game with such an eye for detail is telling me that they would encounter problems when animating a simple skirt which by the way was successfully done in the past many times.
And I don't have objections to girls or women wearing a skirt per se, don't get me wrong, and though it's one of those objects often associated with the oppression of women it of course doesn't automatically stand for sexism. Many woman rightfully love to wear them - it can be a beautiful piece of clothing - and being quite forward thinking nonetheless.
The issue here is that Ueda implied that a girl in his game HAS to wear one! If not dressed that way the customer would not recognize the protagonist as female and, worse, not accept her? Sorry, that's not convincing. I mean Ueda is creating a pretty unique brand of games, far from the usual conventions of the gaming industry but he has to adhere to archaic gender roles in at least two aspects otherwise the game would be met with disregard? Again, that just sounds like an excuse.
The "guys likes playing guys thing" was addressed before (and in my initial post I actually stated that I prefer it that way too because it simplifies the identification with the character) and though it allows interesting insights in the gamer's psyche (if you will) that's an valid argument.
It's not believable that girls do the physical stuff the game demands from his main protagonist? Again, from what I've seen that statement is rather laughable. It's not Nathan Drake or Kratos we're talking about.
Of course he doesn't actually say girls are inferior. Ha ha ... we wouldn't be discussing at all but condeming him in unison if that were the case.
I agree that the whole discussion has been blown out of proportion but then many things only come out into the open when you do some digging. ;-)
I don't want to judge Ueda, as I said I love his games so far - but that doesn't mean he can't be critized at all or that some of his questionable comments aren't open to closer scrutinising.
And actually I only felt compelled to write down my opinion 'cause some rather stupid members of IGN are totally missing the point (you know, those yelling "RYAN YOU F***! THIS IS TOTAL BULLSHIT. HOW DARE YOU! etc.pp.)
I think we've reached a point where we go round in circles.
RYAN IS TRYING TO MAKE HIM SOUND SEXIST.
HE EVEN WANTS HIM TO COME OUT AND SAY IT.
WHICH IN JAPAN IS NO NOT POLICALLY CORRECT,
AND THEY"RE TRYING TO FORCE WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.
BUT HE'S ACCUSING THE WRONG GUY!
I"m all for what i think he's trying to do...
BUT Ueda IS TRYING NOT TO BE OR SOUND SEXIST.
RYANS FORCING SOMETHING WHERE NOTHING EXISTS!
HE TOOK THIS GUYS COMMENTS AND TWISTED THEM AROUND!
i play girls in over half the games where i have a choice,
i love it...BUT THIS IS HORRIBLE, HE"S BASICALLY RAPING THiS
VERY POLITE DEVELOPER WHO MAKES SENSITVE AND BEAUTIFUL GAMES!
THIS ASS MUST BE STOPPED! OR HE"S JUST INSANE!
HE EVEN WANTS HIM TO COME OUT AND SAY IT.
WHICH IN JAPAN IS NO NOT POLICALLY CORRECT,
AND THEY"RE TRYING TO FORCE WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.
BUT HE'S ACCUSING THE WRONG GUY!
I"m all for what i think he's trying to do...
BUT Ueda IS TRYING NOT TO BE OR SOUND SEXIST.
RYANS FORCING SOMETHING WHERE NOTHING EXISTS!
HE TOOK THIS GUYS COMMENTS AND TWISTED THEM AROUND!
i play girls in over half the games where i have a choice,
i love it...BUT THIS IS HORRIBLE, HE"S BASICALLY RAPING THiS
VERY POLITE DEVELOPER WHO MAKES SENSITVE AND BEAUTIFUL GAMES!
THIS ASS MUST BE STOPPED! OR HE"S JUST INSANE!
Look, Ueda is not sexist. Raised in a completely different are than most of us are. Something that might be "archaic" might be very much modern where he is from. Miscommunication is common. The author and Ueda were obviously raised in different ways and as such have different opinions.
